Transcript for The Redemption of General Butt Naked

Jim Fleming: Redemption. The dictionary defines it as "deliverance from sin, atonement for guilt," but are there, or should there be, limits to the kinds of sins that can be redeemed? What about mass murder? One of the war lords who terrorized Liberia during the country's 14-year civil war was a man who called himself "General Butt Naked." He ran a brigade of child soldiers, most of whom he had kidnapped and taught to rape, cannibalize and torture. In 1996, General Butt Naked converted to Christianity and laid down his weapons.

 

 

 

Today, he goes by the name Joshua Milton Blahyi, and with the war in Liberia over, he's traveling the country as a preacher, asking for forgiveness from his victims. Filmmakers Daniele Anastasion and Eric Strauss spent five years following Blahyi around Liberia, making a documentary called "The Redemption of General Butt Naked." Anne Strainchamps wanted to know if it's really possible for the man who's admitted to 20,000 crimes against humanity to change.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Daniele Anastasion: Absolutely, and not only is it possible, but if somebody attempts to make a change like this, how does that play out in the real world? It's such a sea change. It's really difficult to wrap your mind around any kind of claim of transformation at large. As you watch the film, as he engages in these everyday acts of begging for forgiveness from his victims, you're constantly trying to sort of reconcile what he did in the past with what he's trying to be now. It's incredibly, incredibly challenging.

 

 

 

 

 

Anne Strainchamps: So how did this happen that a guy who was, in a sense, raised to be a war lord, turned around, walked away and now, seems to be genuinely asking for forgiveness?

 

 

 

 

 

Eric Strauss: What happened to General Butt Naked and what really was the stimulus for his transformation really fell down to, really came down to one man named Pastor John Kun Kun, who was an Evangelical preacher, minister at the time and still is he's a bishop today during the mid '90s, in 1996. He was a part of a group of Evangelical preachers who were attempting to have an effect on the conflict, a positive effect to end the conflict that was really ravaging their country at the time. This was at the height, 1996 was really at the height of much of the conflict in Liberia.

 

 

 

As Pastor Kun tells it, these men decided to reach out to the war lords to try to speak to the war lords and tell them what they were doing was... they weren't the heroes they saw themselves as, defending their ethnic group or their people, if you will. They were perpetrating atrocities across the nation and causing mass suffering. So these preachers, they were very, in many ways, extremely courageous men, went out into the front lines.

 

 

 

And Pastor Kun went to this area of Monrovia that was controlled by General Butt Naked and his fighters and approached him just walked right up and entered his headquarters and spoke boldly to General Butt Naked and told him that what he was doing was, to use Pastor Kun's vocabulary, a "sin" and a crime in the eyes of God. That really became that moment between those two men became the beginning of the end of the persona of General Butt Naked. It was after that moment, in a series of meetings that would continue to happen between these two men, that led General Butt Naked to lay down his weapons and depart from the front line in late 1996 and become Joshua Milton Blahyi, which is what he goes by today.

 

 

 

 

 

Anne Strainchamps: And I suppose he could have just walked away disappeared somewhere, made a new life under a completely new name. He didn't choose to do that.

 

 

 

 

 

Daniele Anastasion: When he did walk away, there was a lot of pressure for him to rejoin the war. The war kind of died down soon after his conversion, and then it ramped back up for a second phase. During that second phase, there was a lot of pressure from the members of the Krahn tribe and other political figures that he was involved with for him to rejoin the fighting.

 

 

 

So he went into exile. He got married, he started a family and he tried to stay as far away from the fighting in Liberia as possible to avoid any temptation of sliding back into his old persona. He spent several years outside of Liberia. Our film really picks up when he decides to return. He was living in exile in the Buduburam refugee camp in Ghana, where a number of Liberian refugees still live today. We sort of follow him on his journey from Buduburam back to Liberia, where he attempts to reconcile with a lot of his victims' families.

 

 

 

 

 

Anne Strainchamps: Why does he want to do this?

 

 

 

 

 

Eric Strauss: This is really, in many ways, a lot of hopefully what our film is challenging our audience to think about, to acknowledge. I don't think there's an easy answer for that. If you were to listen to Blahyi say it, he claims to have a full understanding of Christianity, of his new faith, and what he needs to do to truly become a Christian and to truly put down that persona of General Butt Naked.

 

 

 

I think he acknowledges that he can never truly balance the scales of his past, but in his words, he believes that this is the only way. The only way to truly be a Christian is to continue on that journey of attempting to balance the scales of his past. Of course, what Daniele and I try to put forth in the film is if that is even possible, number one, and also to really examine a man like Blahyi's motivations. I think that becomes worth looking at when you see him engaged with his former victims, when you see him make his way across Liberia, when you see what happens to him when the Truth and Reconciliation Commission comes to Liberia. We sort of judge him through his actions and present him through his actions and not just his words. It becomes a much more complicated understanding of a man and his motivations.

 

 

 

 

 

[clip from the movie]

 

 

 

Joshua Blahyi aka "General Butt Naked": (talking to someone, a woman who is crying) Sorry, I didn't mean to kill your brother. That's war. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I beg you. Forgive me. No, (something unintelligible) ... I beg you. I kill your brother. I don't mind this. But please, I will be able to pray better for you. I will not be able to do everything that your brother can do. But I will stand there, whenever you need a brotherly council, whenever you need brotherly protection, try to call on me. I beg you please.

 

 

 

(talking to someone else) It's the toughest moment in my life to see somebody who I hurt in the past. She's still crying. I killed her brother. I shot him. Chop him dead. Now, when she reminded me, I feel so evil.

 

 

 

I killed their brothers. I killed their sisters. Ripped them. Crippled them. They are right, not to forgive me.

 

 

 

[end clip]

 

 

 

 

 

Anne Strainchamps: When he's trying to apologize, there's a moment in the film when he's talking to a woman and he says, "I'm sorry I killed your brother, I didn't mean to well yes, he did mean to, don't you think? He killed people on purpose.

 

 

 

 

 

Daniele Anastasion: Yeah, I mean I think in moments like that, you get a sense of his real struggle with his past actions. And I think in the film itself, in the beginning of the film, that moment where he's approached this woman and he's apologizing for the crimes that he committed in the past, you can see that he's really struggling to find a way to interact with these people. And he can come across as very belligerent in some ways. At one point, he uses the language, "You have to forgive me."

 

 

 

 

 

Anne Strainchamps: He's putting a lot of pressure on her to forgive him, and as a viewer, I mean, I feel like that's not something he's entitled to ask for.

 

 

 

 

 

Daniele Anastasion: Sure, and it's absolutely very uncomfortable.

 

 

 

 

 

Anne Strainchamps: What was the most moving of those, for you?

 

 

 

 

 

Eric Strauss: One moment that was perhaps the most moving for me or one of the reconciliation moments was when Blahyi approached Lovetta and her daughter, because I think that initially, you think of these reconciliation moments as about Blahyi. But as you really spend time and you witness them and you witness the hurt and the pain that has happened to these Liberians, I think in the end, those moments are truly about the victims. And Blahyi is not really what's important to us at those moments, in many ways. It is the healing that is taking place, hopefully, for those victims that ability to peace with their past and confront it in the face of Blahyi and move beyond it and heal.

 

 

 

I think for me, when Lovetta's daughter was confronted with Blahyi, you see her on camera crying. And I, at the time that Daniele and I were shooting, just assumed, "This poor girl, she's terrified. This man who murdered her or this man's army murdered her father and caused, wounded her for life. She's crying and I just assumed it was from fear, but later she said that she was crying because it touched her to see someone who had hurt her come forward and beg for her forgiveness. As a non-Liberian, as a Westerner, my mind, the way I necessarily understand justice and forgiveness I never would have went there in my mind. I don't think I would have sat there if I had been the wounded party and had a thought like that. And that touched me. I mean, this was a girl who was 14, 15 years old and I thought that was an extremely profound way to approach reconciliation and healing.

 

 

 

 

 

Anne Strainchamps: So does it make a difference for the victims a permanent difference, do you think, when Blahyi comes up and when they can confront him, when he can say he's sorry?

 

 

 

 

 

Daniele Anastasion: Yeah, I mean I think to some extent, regardless of whether or not we believe Blahyi, you notice that a lot of the victims that he approaches are sort of using the situation for their own means, for their own ability to heal and move beyond the past. They certainly don't expect a perfect man before them.

 

 

 

But the consul, who we continue to be in touch with, has expressed numerous times that just the ability to meet Blahyi and to experience that moment of reconciliation was kind of like a weight lifted off of his shoulders. The ability to forgive, for him, was extremely beneficial on a psychological level, regardless of whether or not Blahyi actually deserves it. That's something that viewers will make their own judgments and reserve for themselves, but it is undeniable that the ability to bestow forgiveness on somebody can have really powerful effects for the person who is doing it.

 

 

 

 

 

Anne Strainchamps: Blahyi does also has reached out and is doing a fair amount of work with some of the former child soldiers, people he kidnapped and brought into his army, hooked on drugs, taught to fight. He says that he's the one who should do it. Do you agree?

 

 

 

 

 

Eric Strauss: I think this a more. This is one of those extremely complicated issues. As you see in the film, Daniele and I were there witnessing Blahyi reaching out to former fighters of all the different factions, attempting to act as a role model for them and show them that you can change, in Blahyi words, he accepted Christianity and is acting as a preacher, attempting to turn these young men's lives around, bring them out of slums and ghettoes where they're involved in drugs and crime and turn their lives around.

 

 

 

And on the one hand, that's extremely admirable. And in many ways, Blahyi is very well-placed to do that since, as many of the fighters have said to Daniele and I and they say in the film, as bad as they were, he was worse. So to see someone like that be able to pull himself out of a sense of guilt of what they've done and move on with their lives and reach out to people. He is a powerful symbol to those young men.

 

 

 

Simultaneously though, I think it's also very uncomfortable to witness Blahyi sort of reassuming a position of power with these young men. There is a scene in the Victory Church where he is encouraging and getting these young men worked up about changing their lives. But it is somewhat frighteningly reminiscent of what he must have been like on the streets of Monrovia in 1996 as General Butt Naked, kind of working up these young men to do, to commit atrocities. And I think that's where that uncomfortable moment lies. And it kind of us bring us back again to re-examining Blahyi's motivations.

 

 

 

Is this a guy who put down means to power and has picked up another? I mean, what is really motivating him at these moments? Because it is a very uncomfortable place for a figure like him to be in again.

 

 

 

 

 

[ clip from movie ]

 

 

 

Joshua Blahyi aka "General Butt Naked": (addressing the former child soldiers) We want to take something this morning. This very nation has rejected you. This very city has said nothing good come out of you. I stand in the name of the Lord this morning and say, "Go show yourself to Liberia."  I stand before you at this hour. I said, "Go show yourself to your family. Go show yourself to the society." I command you this morning, in the name of the Lord, in the mighty name of the Lord that you would go and you would see no limitation in you. I declare that limitation of you broken. I declare it broken! I declare it destroyed! By the power in the mighty name of Jesus!

 

 

 

[ clip continues in the background ]

 

 

 

 

 

Anne Strainchamps: Do you like him?

 

 

 

 

 

Daniele Anastasion: Hmm. That's a good question. I mean, I think in some ways, the question itself the reality of the situation is a little bit bigger than that. I mean, it's hard to sort of distill it down to whether or not you like somebody. I mean, he is a perpetrator of atrocities and it's kind of hard to get around that on some level. But he can be a very likable person to be around. But every time you might begin to feel that way, your mind sort of automatically wanders back to what it is he did. And that always presents a certain level of discomfort.

 

 

 

 

 

Eric Strauss: I would also you know, I completely agree with Daniele in that and say that on many levels, it's not really an issue of "like." I mean, is he a likable guy? Yeah. Are there moments when we get on with him? Yeah, we spent five years documenting his journey. At the end of the day though, it gets to the issue of is he genuine or not as well. I mean, is he likable? Sure. But does it matter? I'm not sure it necessarily does. At the end of the day, he is guilty of these crimes and that takes us to another step, which is the issue of justice. Again, is he genuine or not? Is he sincere or not? Even if he is, that only takes you so far in the questions surrounding individuals like Blahyi and other Liberian perpetrators.

 

 

 

 

 

Anne Strainchamps: Redemption is at the heart of this film. What does redemption mean to you?

 

 

 

 

 

Daniele Anastasion: I think that I've come to understand throughout the process of making of this film, the idea of redemption is a process. It's not an absolute place or a state of being. Bishop John Kun Kun, who we spoke to in the film actually kinda makes this point that it is a journey. It is not a place you can arrive at. And that's very much how I see Joshua Blahyi, his attempts at reconciliation. The redemption of General Butt Naked isn't a fact, it's more a process. It's sort of a state of attempting to right the wrongs of his past. And I don't think in my mind, I don't feel that it's so much that he's achieved redemption but that he's attempting to. And it really remains to be seen through his actions. Will he continue to stay on the path that he's chosen and continue to develop? Or will he sort of fall back into kind of a more selfish motive.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jim Fleming: Daniele Anastasion and Eric Strauss directed "The Redemption of General Butt Naked." Anne Strainchamps spoke with them.

 

 

 

"Say Something About Child's Play," a poem by Nigeria Chris Abani:

 

 

 

The soldier asks the boy: Choose which

 

do I cleave? Your right arm or left?

 

The boy, 10, maybe 9, says: Neither,

 

or when I play, like a bird with a broken wing

 

I will smudge the line of the hopscotch

 

square, let the darkness in.

 

 

 

The soldier asks again: Choose which

 

do I cleave? Your right leg or left?

 

Older in this moment than his dead father, the boy

 

says: Neither, or when I dance the sprit dance,

 

I will stumble, kick sand in the face of light.

 

 

 

This boy says: Take my right eye,

 

it has seen too much, but leave me the left,

 

I will need it to see God.